Loving Christ and Satan – Reader Q&A
A reply to a very touching letter sent by a fan, and a discussion on duality in Satanism. This letter was not easy to reply to but this reader had a very serious issue. As she is new to Satanism, I wanted to offer some of my advice to her.
..I have read a good bit on your website, and I have watched many of your videos. I am fascinated by Satanism, and especially your ideas on Independent Satanism. But I am fairly new to all this. I became a Christian when I was very young. But in recent years I have become repulsed by Christians and the church. I see no value in associating myself with either. At the same time I find myself very much attracted to Satan.
Yet I still feel pulled in two directions. What I read about Jesus makes it hard for me to hate him. I don’t see the same bullshit coming from him that I see coming from Christians and the church. So I would like to know if it is necessary for me to denounce Christianity, that is to denounce Jesus Christ, in order to practice Satanism.
I feel like I am falling in love with Satan. Yet I still respect the words of Christ. From some of my reading, it seems that most satanists really despise him. Any insight into my dilemma would be appreciated. Hail Satan.
I do not believe that you have to hate Jesus in order to be a Satanist. Now, I’m waiting for the mail to pour in because of that statement, but allow me to explain.
The hatred of Christ by Satanists has a long history. Even before LaVey made his church and declared that Satanism should be a practice and a religion, the Christians created a reputation for Satanists that included rites that transversed Christianity.
You can read stories like this in books such as ‘LaBas’ (Huysmans), and ‘Satanism and Witchcraft’ (Jules Michelet). Authors like this drew from the tales that were used during the witchcraft trials. They included morbid scenes of black masses where the (defrocked) priest would trample on the host, offer unholy sacraments and assist the priestess who was usually described as a street-whore or a former nun. Other rites included horrible things like using baby fat for candles In reading these tales you may think that there were some people who did some very morbid things in pursuit of denying the church.
Why would the church make up horror stories like this? For authors like Huysmans it made them a lot of money through sensationalism. It enabled the Church to create an environment of fear, where they were able to gain control. It allowed for the witch trials to happen and many died, needlessly. Their propaganda enabled them to have social control. The early church also did not want the competition from Jewish society. Many Jews were killed, labeled as witches, their holy ‘Sabbat’ becoming the witch’s unholy sabbath.. The tales the christian writers created were centered around these ideas. It worked for a very long time.
Even LaVey, who had the most social control over popular satanism, created an environment that focused on denying the Christ-figure and embracing the ways of Satan. Much of that was influenced by anti-Christian rhetoric of philosophers. It seems that since then, it has become almost traditional for Satanists to behave in this way.
I take a different view. I accept that there are many gods in this world.
In my article, “My Advice on Leaving Christianity“, I try to take a neutral view in suggesting how to leave that religion. I do not see a need to waste emotional energy on hate. That is why i suggest to this reader that if she wants to leave Christianity, then she should, but its not required of her to hate anything.
In Satanism, it is useful for some to mock or ridicule their former beliefs, as that enables them to subconsciously break with the former beliefs of the past.
If she finds that the majority of her Christian friends are actually hypocrites according to what they are supposed to be living by as Christians, then maybe she will be able to see that their way of life and their religion is a moral ideal, and that very few people in this life will ever achieve this perfected ideal.
I would not blame this on the god, but i would place the blame on the people within that religion who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Of course, I am not a Christian so it is not my place to judge.
Satanism in general is more accepting of the human condition and that is why there is no need to restrict the self to moral conditioning. That is why as a Satanist she may be able to see this ‘hypocritical self deceit’ that others continually choose to accept as a way of life. She may have to transition from an accepting and faithful way of life, to a more modern rationalist humanist approach. Some never make that transition and they merely invert the values of Christianity. Even though the story is inverted, they never leave the sphere of Christian influence.
Overall, her biggest issue is going to be the situation of duality.
Accepting Christ is fine but according to the Christian tradition, there can not be room in one’s heart for both god and Satan. There are generally no rules as to how Satanists accept other gods, but generally from a Satanists point of view the Christian god would be either:
1. nonexistent
2. Denied, hated or reviled;
3. The eternal enemy of Satan
4. tolerated as the god of others who are Christian.
wanting to love Jesus and Satan at the same time, while being dedicated to Satan is a noble thing to do. I do not think it would be easy. My suggestion to her that she examine her motives and sincerely explore whether she is ready to leave Christianity or not. and if she is, then she is free to leave it behind without hating it. If that decision is too much to handle or her Christian belief in Christ prevents her from doing it, then she would be better off returning to her god and praying for forgiveness for straying from the path of Christian righteousness.
~Venus
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About The Author
Venus Satanas
My name is Venus Satanas and this is a bit of copy about me. I have been a Satanist since 1992, and I am the author of SpiritualSatanist.com, author and administrator of the Left Hand Path Books Review Blog, and creator of educational videos on Satanism at Youtube. That's not telling you much, so find out more about me here
Why do some satanists despise christ and christianity and most christians fear satan, so condemn,was well addressed.
And the continuity of the polarity and the changes now are what I want to live through with more purpose.
I don't expect to understand the flux in changes within huge groups of existance's fractals,but I will participate in it,through much more than the limitations that the brain and mind becomes used to in the inequalities of the equation set by the meagre and inane.
The historical memory sets such bias that opinion and conditioning is hard to set aside.
Whatever life might be it is always a struggle to find life to live in freedom.
Every memory is history.
So many people have alters on pillars,some on ancient traditions,many on none old.
It's true I don't know where to look but at what I was told.
So magic is a dying art and the only mirror.
I ant a ritual but don't know what and what for exactly.
I need to practice precisely or is sincerity the faith that needs only living and death.
Fond greetings Gaina! Apologies for my tardiness. I hope you find time to read this.
I don't want to get Satanists and Atheists mixed up here.
I think both groups share the very strong fact that we are all (Atheists, Agnostics, Pantheists, and all kinds of Satanists) stigmatized by society, and we all have varying but generally serious reservations about the three monotheisms. Also important to note, isn't spiritual and theistic Satanism stigmatized and rejected by all other spiritual and theistic groups, not just Atheists? But good point, when Peter Gilmore says that Satanism begins with secular Atheism, and Paul Valentine says he is an Atheist, hard to keep things from being mixed up.
I know that Satanists generally 'dont give an opinion unless it's asked for' and this is what attracted me to the philosophy
Yes, for me as well. But when there is so much bad information on Satanism, and a lot of it is deliberately denigrating, itâs hard not to react. And then of course, youâre immediately attacked for being âdogmatic.â Damned if you do; damned if you donât. đ
Certain Atheists make me smile because they are as zealous and confrontational as their Christian couterparts and they can't see how ironic their godless fundamentalism is!
Well, I respectfully canât agree with you on this at all. I have found Atheists to be the most accomodating to my appreciation for all forms of Satanism. Your comment seems reactionary, i.e. take no action, which is certainly fine. But you mentioned you have gay friends. These exact labels were first used and are continued to be used by Christians to dismiss and stigmatize the gay and lesbian movement. Gays and lesbians â rightly â saw that they were not accomplishing anything by being deferential to Christians and their âvalues,â so they got angry, organized themselves, become aggressive and confrontational, and accomplished a lot. Now Atheists are following that exact approach. Atheism has been called the last social taboo. Studies show that Atheists are – still to this day – held in contempt by the mainstream even more so than gays. If Atheists are treated this way, how do you think Satanists would fare? Even worse, Iâd say. Atheist activism has been a long time coming and I am very glad to hear Atheists stop being so accomodating to Christianity. Christianity has a long legacy of not receiving any organized challenge. How else to gain any sort of progress without being confrontational? Asking politely? You say zealous, I say empowered. Atheists are attacking an institution that is not deserving of itâs lengthy power and privilege. They are standing up for themselves. Private, quiet faith is a completely separate issue. No Atheist group ever, has had any interest in taking that away whatsoever, be it from a Christian, Satanist, Wiccan, Buddhist, etc., nor could they if they wanted.
And it isnât really correct to say Atheism is fundamentalist. Atheism is an empirical philosophy. Fundamentalism means refusing to give up beliefs even in the face of demonstrable evidence. Even the most notorious Atheists, like Dawkins and Hitchens (your fellow countryman đ who I've had the pleasure of meeting briefly) have clearly stated they would be willing to believe in God if they are shown evidence. They havenât been shown any, so they have given the probability of Godâs existence to be a very low number. They have said it is rational to assume there is no God in the face of a complete lack of evidence, until some emerges, which is highly unlikely to happen. Read: said. Sure, they will tell you, if you claim something is true without evidence, you are foolish and gullible for believing it. I accept it. But that's it. That's the whole, âcrazyâ, âfanaticalâ package. Why on earth should they be labelled âfundamentalistsâ or âfanaticsâ like these ridiculous Christians, Muslims and Jews who carry out perverse ACTS of idiocy? Seems very unfair.
I think if people can't sit down and have a mature objective discussion about matters of faith then this is a sign they are not secure in themselves.
And matters of lack of faith. As a person involved with Atheist and pro-science activism, I have seen the attempts made to sit down, over and over. As Iâve said, Christians (Muslims and Jews as well) are always ready to sit down, but they are never prepared to give up their higher moral ground; they are not willing to give up the position that their faith in God (and his prophets) grants them special privilege; that their values are best for us all, even if we reject them.
Why did you do that? Have you asked yourself if you secretly get a thrill from shocking people? My reasons for being a Satanist are entirely personal and I have no interest in testing other people's reactions to it. I am able to put my principles into practice every day without pushing people's buttons by broadcasting what I am. Apart from being none of anyone else's business, it's just not necessary.
No, this was not my intention, it was the result. Most importantly, being shocked by the Baphomet was a choice she made. I had nothing to do with it. For the first time in my life, a person said something quite intelligent and complimentary about Satanists, so it felt right to share with her my beautiful Baphomet that Iâd kept in private for last twenty years or so. I was happy to do it. I felt pride, and like you mentioned above, maybe a bit of arrogance. Based on her kind words, I thought she would be receptive. The fact that she was shocked and silent, I found amusing because I think it was a clear case of, be careful what you wish for. đ BTW, we are still caring friends, yet we have never mentioned anything about Satanism to each other again.
For me, it is a conflict. I donât know if it should be entirely personal; perhaps mostly personal is better. Venus Satanas mentioned she did wear her Baphomet to work on occasion. The COS emporium sells Baphomet t-shirts to wear outside. Does this bother you? My reasons are personal but Satanism is also about powerful positivism. I want people to know that the Baphomet is a POSITIVE symbol. I want to challenge Christianity's claim on "good" and "right." I see enough crosses every day to make my head spin. I think being a big fan of the black metal scene where the Baphomet is so prominently displayed by many bands, just confirms how sometimes I feel sick and tired of having to hide my being a Satanist. Why not show pride? So I do wear it openly on these occasions. But the symbol of choice worn by most concert goers by far is the inverted cross. The Baphomet is scare. Of note, the COS has never had any problem with metal bands using the Baphomet, though Peter Gilmore has written correctly that it is mostly faux Satanism. .
My christian friend who I mentioned earlier is great at picking apart her own religion. She is forever upsetting the apple cart in her diocese because she is always questioning her faith and encouraging her fellow Christians to do the same.
It's not unreasonable to ask, with so much to question, why does she continue to be a Christian? Many of the Atheists I know, began with questioning and eventually left for good.
If were are talking about Christians' rights not to be challenged and a modern society's right to analyze outmoded schools of thought on anything, be it religion, politics or whatever, then I would put the balance of rights on society, not the christian.If the Christian is so scared of that challenge then I'd suggest they think about how strong their faith really is and weather they are brave enough to re-assess their attitudes.
But this is it. Christians claim that Christianity and society are one and the same. Any challenge to this is anti-social, anarchistic, negative and dangerous. They claim we owe all that is good to Christianity. Christianity is the pillar of society. Christian faith is the only path to true morality. And this is not the view put forth by âfundamentalistsâ, this is the view shared by all Christians. And just as bad, many non-Christians have been led to believe and accept this as well.
Sadly I have met more Wiccans that Christians who are arrogant, self-rightous hypocrites
Interesting. Yes, not that easy to meet enough Wiccans for a decent sample size to compare to Christians. The reputation that Wiccans have of being unreceptive to the Satanic philosophy, and reacting to Satan as a "boogeyman" was confirmed as true on two occasions.
Well! This has been fun! đ It's always interesting to see how people percieve you from comments you leave in a blog and how that differs from the reality. Thank you for being smart enough to ask more questions so that you get a fuller picture of who I really am ;-).
Yes, definitely. I hope others will read and perhaps comment. I hope Venus Satanas will forgive us and continue to accept posts from us in the future after taking up so much space. đ
HS
In answer to Satan's Chaplain:
I don't want to get Satanists and Atheists mixed up here. I know that Satanists generally 'dont give an oppinion unless it's asked for' and this is what attracted me to the philosophy. Certain Atheists make me smile because they are as zealous and confrontational as their Christian couterparts and they can't see how ironic their godless fundamentalism is!
Arenât there many Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices that are simply flawed, nonsensical, and hurtful to ALL non-Christians, not just Satanists? Then there is reason to call Christians out, as opposed to being quiet and âshow respect.â But when even the so-called secular mainstream accepts that if one challenges or expresses any disagreement or displeasure with Christianity, you are being negative, cynical, bigoted, or even sociopathic, clearly the strategy has worked well. To me, this is pure tragedy.
Oh absolutely, especially what I see the implications they have for gender equality and the right of my gay friends to marry and adopt. On social issues where a faith is counter-productive to human rights and sexual health then it MUST be challenged. I have always been of the oppinion that respect is not an automatic right for ANYONE and must be earned. This is what I'm trying to get at – I may totally disagree with an argument (and it doesn't have to be religious in nature) but I must be satisfied that the person has researched their subject well and created a logical argument before I can respect it….and possibly reject it.
I think if people can't sit down and have a mature objective discussion about matters of faith then this is a sign they are not secure in themselves. Personally I don't care who knows what I am or what they think of what I am because it works for me (hehe, I never said I was immune to arrogance myself!).
Staying with the implications on society of faith but taking a slight tangent here, I think the stipulation that an American must believe in God to be President is rediculous. I want the person running my country (in my case England) to base their decisions on what is logical and in the best interests of that country's citizens, not how it squares up to their highly subjective belief in a 2,000 year old text that has been added to and edited upteen times since.
Christians and those that challenge Christianity are coming at each other from completely different positions of status. Iâm sure youâll come across some moderate, liberal or secular Christians (Iâve personally met two) who claim that – Yes! – they also embrace more open, honest, pro-individual, and pro-human viewpoints (as long as you first didnât identify them as being from Satanic ideology;
Those people sound as if they are of the type I mentioned before – unable to another person's way of life in a mature fashion because they are not entirely sure of their own faith and feel threatened by someone or something that confronts them with their own doubts.
I did later and pulled out my Sigil of Baphomet, which elicited a hilarious, horrified reaction đ ).
Why did you do that? Have you asked yourself if you secretly get a thrill from shocking people? My reasons for being a Satanist are entirely personal and I have no interest in testing other people's reactions to it. I am able to put my principles into practice every day without pushing people's buttons by broadcasting what I am. Apart from being none of anyone else's business, it's just not necessary.
(part 2 coming up….)
In response to Satan's Chaplain – Part 2
But what I have found consistently with the overwhelming majority of ALL Christians (yes, even these âsincerelyâ pro-individual moderates who say they truly represent Christianity and dislike the fundamentalist, evangelicals) is that they still claim a higher moral ground, a special authority and that Christian faith is a pillar of a âdecentâ society. Perhaps, with a moderate I would likely only want to take apart this flawed thinking. But with a fundie, the probability of taking them apart as well as their beliefs is near certainty. As a Satanist, I expect a Christian to not only try to take apart my beliefs, non-beliefs and practices, but to have to withstand an ad hominem attack as well.
The thing you have to take into account with regard to 'fundamentalist' of any type is that it's adherants are more often than not mentally ill and have to be treated accordingly. Extensive research into the mental health of Animal Rights activists has shown this.
My christian friend who I mentioned earlier is great at picking apart her own religion. She is forever upsetting the apple cart in her diocese because she is always questioning her faith and encouraging her fellow Christians to do the same.
Maybe we feel a bit differently because I have never had a close enough relationship with a Christian that I would ever have a conflict. Or because I associate with.Atheists. And because I have been a big follower of Satanism within both the first wave of black metal (Kind Diamond of âMercyful Fateâ and a friend of the LaVey family) and Scandinavian black metal culture (Infernus and Isahn, the gnostic Satanists of the groups âGorgorothâ and âEmperorâ; yet there are many problems and confusions within black metal (and Venus Satanasâ writings have helped me to try and understand this) like diabolism, shamanism, reverse Christianity, and faux Satanism all mixed together.
That's probably true. Whilst I am not well disposed to human beings as a rule and can count my true friends on one hand, I find that as long as a person is not a racist, a hypocrite or homophobic I can 'rub along' with just about anybody. My few close relationships are with people who posses qualities I respect and admire like honesty, intelligence and compassion. These qualities can be present in a person who prays 5 times a day or not at all.
As to your question weather I am 'personalizing' this? No, but you are correct in suggesting that I was thinking about people who take pleasure in causing distress to others (like the 'bible burning' video I mentioned earlier), and share your view that this is cruel and unnecessary.
(Part three coming up – sorry about this VS!!).
In response to Satan's Chaplain – Part 3
If were are talking about Christians' rights not to be challenged and a modern society's right to analyze outmoded schools of thought on anything, be it religion, politics or whatever, then I would put the balance of rights on society, not the christian. If the Christian is so scared of that challenge then I'd suggest they think about how strong their faith really is and weather they are brave enough to re-assess their attitudes.
I simply donât accept Christianity as a benign faith..
I don't accept anyone or anything as 'benign' – it can't be or else it would be without purpose on the planet. Evolution didn't make no junk! Haha. Sadly I have met more Wiccans that Christians who are arrogant, self-rightous hypocrites (though this might be more to do with the ratio of exposure to certain people that anything else). When I was starting my journey in Witchcraft I tried on Wicca for size and got a crash-course in 'Bitchcraft'! Needless to say my relationship with Wicca didn't last long :P. The Wiccan rede made no sense to me either (mind you I've never had a happy relationship with rules).
Well! This has been fun! đ It's always interesting to see how people percieve you from comments you leave in a blog and how that differs from the reality. Thank you for being smart enough to ask more questions so that you get a fuller picture of who I really am ;-).
Gaina, so great that you responded (I wrote once concerning LaVey),
>What I meant was that I see Christians as different to me, not better or worse (that's >about the individual praticing the faith) and I am not going to take someone apart >because I don't like their beliefs.
Do you feel conflicted? Perhaps, because you were a Christian, and you developed close relationships with some, and still must keep a few. I know a few Atheists who feel conflicted because someone close to them is a Christian. Though I canât share with you, I understand how this might be difficult.
In my view, I think the key points in our differences are (and perhaps Venus Satanas will point out anything not exactly correct):
1) Taking someoneâs beliefs apart is NOT the same as taking them apart personally (at least initially, depending on their behavior after being challenged).
2) Christianity is deserving of challenge and rejection, BUT challenging is not necessarily and explicitly implying, I am better, you must do and say what I do and say (become a Satanist or Atheist)
3) Christians have a well established history of using and abusing the tool of proselytism; Satanists do not proselytize, we confirm our beliefs and practices when called to do so in the face of misinformation and defamation
Arenât there many Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices that are simply flawed, nonsensical, and hurtful to ALL non-Christians, not just Satanists? Then there is reason to call Christians out, as opposed to being quiet and âshow respect.â But when even the so-called secular mainstream accepts that if one challenges or expresses any disagreement or displeasure with Christianity, you are being negative, cynical, bigoted, or even sociopathic, clearly the strategy has worked well. To me, this is pure tragedy.
Christians and those that challenge Christianity are coming at each other from completely different positions of status. Iâm sure youâll come across some moderate, liberal or secular Christians (Iâve personally met two) who claim that – Yes! – they also embrace more open, honest, pro-individual, and pro-human viewpoints (as long as you first didnât identify them as being from Satanic ideology; I did later and pulled out my Sigil of Baphomet, which elicited a hilarious, horrified reaction đ ). But what I have found consistently with the overwhelming majority of ALL Christians (yes, even these âsincerelyâ pro-individual moderates who say they truly represent Christianity and dislike the fundamentalist, evangelicals) is that they still claim a higher moral ground, a special authority and that Christian faith is a pillar of a âdecentâ society. Perhaps, with a moderate I would likely only want to take apart this flawed thinking. But with a fundie, the probability of taking them apart as well as their beliefs is near certainty. As a Satanist, I expect a Christian to not only try to take apart my beliefs, non-beliefs and practices, but to have to withstand an ad hominem attack as well.
Maybe we feel a bit differently because I have never had a close enough relationship with a Christian that I would ever have a conflict. Or because I associate with.Atheists. And because I have been a big follower of Satanism within both the first wave of black metal (Kind Diamond of âMercyful Fateâ and a friend of the LaVey family) and Scandinavian black metal culture (Infernus and Isahn, the gnostic Satanists of the groups âGorgorothâ and âEmperorâ; yet there are many problems and confusions within black metal (and Venus Satanasâ writings have helped me to try and understand this) like diabolism, shamanism, reverse Christianity, and faux Satanism all mixed together.
I simply donât accept Christianity as a benign faith and I find it uniquely deserving of contempt (perhaps Islam would be the other).. On the individual level, yes, you donât have to attack the person, but even moderate Christians should still not be free from having their beliefs taken apart. I have met practioners of Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Wicca, Paganism, and existentialism and there is much I do not like, nor agree with and challenge, and they can be just as ignorant and dismissive of Satanism. But they donât possess or exude (yet) anywhere near the profound level of arrogance, entitlement and self-righteousness that is Christianity. Nor the drive for power and privilege. Again the strategy has been relentless proselytizing. Christians have been allowed to carry their message to such an extreme that they feel they are untouchable, far above everyone else, the world is theirs, and they arenât going to give an inch. And they expect non-Christians to comply.
> I derive no pleasure from causing distress to someone
> just because I can'.
Again, it sounds a bit like youâre personalizing this. Are you thinking of someone in particular that might be at a vulnerable time in their life? Sure, one can pick spots. Iâm not implying going after just anyone. Maybe it depends on what you mean exactly by âdistressâ? Causing deliberate mental distress to a person to derive pleasure is cruel and not what I meant. But if a Christian claims they have a right to not have his or beliefs challenged or rejected, because it causes distress, thatâs just highly unreasonable in a free society. Again, as a Satanist, I have been and expect to be rejected and ridiculed, I just wonât allow it to cause me distress. Do you know theyâre trying to enact blasphemy legislation in countries (Ireland, Turkey, Germany) that would prevent any religious challenge to Christianity, Islam or Judaism? In Poland, Gorgoroth had their âBlack Mass Krakowâ concert DVD seized by police on suspicion of âreligious offence.â Just as pathetic as the idiots who pressured local authorities to ban Marilyn Manson concerts for telling "children to abandon Christianity". (BTW, you have to like black metal, but the Gorgoroth footage along with the music and lyrics, I find profoundly inspirational and amazing to incorporate. In one particular song,
âProcreating Satanâ when the vocalist howls, âPraise Satan! Praise Satan!â, I am at the height of being deeply moved. Itâs an amazing feeling.)
>With regard to Jesus, the stories are so contradictory that I am convinced he was a >fictitious character.
Thank you for saying this! Sometimes I get scolded by Atheists for saying this, if you can believe. And as I mentioned, Jesus, the Old, and especially the New Testament are grossly over-rated, and obsolete. There are so many other non-Christian sources, symbols, texts, writings and practices that are much richer sources of knowledge. One can do so much better.
>At the end of the day I have nothing to prove to anyone so I only really call religious >people out when they are being hypocrites. As long as people don't shove their nose in >my business or their religion down my throat I'll just go quietly about my
On an individual level, that would seem to work well for you, and for me as well on a slightly lesser level. What wouldnât seem to work for you is my enjoyment of blasphemy, mockery and ridicule when it applies to Christianity because I think it is an institution deserving of such. And this is not targeted against any particular individual per se.
Satan's Chaplain: I mostly agree with you in your response to my comments too! :). Of course you make a fine point with regard to the 'adversary'. Having an adversary who gives your theories and attitudes the occasional poke to see if they are still relevant is no bad thing :).
What I meant was that I see Christians as different to me, not better or worse (that's about the individual praticing the faith) and I am not going to take someone apart because I don't like their beliefs. I derive no pleasure from causing distress to someone 'just because I can'.
BUT….
I will sure as hell take them apart of they are hypocritical or they use their faith as an excuse to hurt another human being. I'm not a big fan of rules myself, but I firmly believe that if you do buy into a faith that has rules, they you better do you best to stick to them!
With regard to Jesus, the stories are so contradictory that I am convinced he was a fictitious character. How can the man who threw the traders out of the temple and kicked so much ass be the same one that allowed himself to be crucified? The fact that the authors of the bible can't seem to decided weather he was a rebel or a meek sheep who went quietly to his own slaughter makes me think he was neither because he never existed.
If someone tries to harm me, I'm not going to turn the other cheek, I'm going to give them a dose of their own medicine – no ifs or buts. Neither will I love my neighbour if they are a cruel, selfish bigot.
At the end of the day I have nothing to prove to anyone so I only really call religious people out when they are being hypocrites. As long as people don't shove their nose in my business or their religion down my throat I'll just go quietly about my business.
Fond greetings Gaina and Venus Satanas,
Can I start by saying I do enjoy Gaina and her replies. And even though in this particular reply, I disagree with most of it, it doesnât in any way mean that I am attacking neither her nor the woman writing to Venus Satanas. Iâm trying to embrace them. Anything I write is free to be challenged.
>'Wanting to Love Jesus and Satan at the same time' seems a perfect metaphor for >striving to love the dark and light within your own personality!
I think that there are much greater and more fulfilling metaphors for loving the light within my Satanic personality than something as profoundly hackneyed as Jesus. Iâm so very, very tired of hearing about him, and if he did practice what he preached, itâs logical to assume that at this point he would be sick of himself too. I think of Bertrand Russellâs brilliant essay, âWhy I am Not a Christian.â that he was viciously attacked for writing by many Christians, and is still attacked to this day. In essence, he says that in the history of mankind, there have been so many other brilliant thinkers, that Jesus doesnât even show up on the radar. Nothing that Jesus ever said was anything that profound at all. And of course, we have to make some pretty big assumptions: firstly, that he even existed (there is no definitive proof); and, that what he said was accurately recorded, translated and not modified or enhanced in any way over centuries by many human transcribers.
>I have never been comfortable with Satanists or Atheists who aggressively mock >Christians.
Should we not give any thought to the fact that âSatanâ is a Hebrew word meaning âadversaryâ or âopposerâ?
I am one of these Satanists. And I am a friend with many âaggressiveâ (I like to call them âempoweredâ) Atheists. Though yes, Iâm aware that Atheists may challenge and reject some of my Satanic beliefs or practices, I accept it, since I share much with Atheists.
In North America, Atheists (and if Satanists were even given the slightest amount of respect from âexpertâ sociologists to be included in their surveys we likely would surpass Atheists) are the most hated group by Christians (even moderate ones). Even more than fundamentalist Muslims. Why? Because they refuse to blatantly pander to Christians. Christians are not accommodated, they are challenged. They have to answer questions about their beliefs or âmorality.â I donât want them to feel comfortable. Why must I have to frame what I say to please the Christian audience? Even with so-called moderate Christians, they should have to answer to thoughtful criticism.
I think that when satire and mockery can be used effectively, they have a legitimate place whenever ridiculous, outdated and restrictive ideas are joined to power and privilege, as is clearly the case with Christianity. There is a world of difference between being civil and lawful and just keeping our mouths shut. I think Atheists and Satanists have been expected and forced to play the role of submissive. Those of God and Jesus have tried, and have been quite successful, at keeping us on the fringe. I feel that many, many Christians are deserving of the ridicule. They have no one to blame but themselves for their behaviour and their attitude. What is still being promoted by fundamentalist Christians and accepted passively as true by moderate Christians? This is a Christian world founded on the highest of all ideals: Christian ideals; those who donât accept God and Christ cannot know what is truly moral; I am good because I am Christian, I am Christian because I am good; all that is âgoodâ in the world is of Christianity; that which is âbadâ in the world is the result of a lack of Christian faith.
I tolerate Christians in the sense that Satanists do live by social contracts. I donât promote violence or hatred, but I do not in any way accept Christian beliefs and attitudes, and I openly and aggressively challenge them. I have used – by and for myself – intellectual and rational methodologies to come to the conclusion that Christianity is hopelessly flawed (and of course, Christians will simply parrot the exact same thing about Satanism).
>None of us have the definitive answer, just the answer to what works in our own lives so >a little humility wouldn't go amiss on either side, IMHO.
I really appreciate âjust the answer to what works in our own lives.â So true. I am very comfortable, happy and fulfilled to be a Satanist and to not be a Christian. I donât see anything wrong with saying this.
But how can you show humility when Christians take themselves to be on such a higher level than you? Have Christians ever shown any humility? Christians are too used to the feeling of being in control and of being ârightâ. They may grant you pity and be very nice and cordial when talking to you, but I find it to be a fake humility. I donât accept that simply because I am aggressively challenging Christianity that I am necessarily arrogant, fundamentalist, negative, or nihilistic. I feel that challenging Christianity is a very positive and enlightening undertaking, NOT the other way around as is the typical BS response by Christians. When the Emperor has no clothes, shouldn't we say so? Thatâs not the same as saying we have the answer, you must listen to us.
And therein lies the one huge difference between Christians and many others: proselytizing. I accept the comparison of Christianity to a powerful corporation that has dominated through ruthless and relentless business practices. Itâs upsetting to me that some Satanists and Atheists actually feel guilt or shame about not being Christian, about not living as they are expected to live. I honestly donât invest any effort into caring whether someone likes or respects my Satanic beliefs, practices, etc., For in understanding the Self, Satanism doesnât seek one out, one seeks out Satanism, sometimes exhaustingly. We are on the Left Hand Path that we have found for our Self, of our own free will. This touching letter to Venus Satanas reminds me of how happy I am that I was raised by Agnostics, and was allowed to find my path much earlier in life because my mind was free.
I donât believe that Iâve ever heard from any Satanist who says that she or he claims to have the definitive answer. What Iâve found is that many are tired of ignorant untruths and defamatory statements made about Satanists, and weâre just standing up for each other and being forced to educate others to a certain degree, not proselytize at all. This is where Dr. James R. Lewisâ work comes in. Although I know Peter Gilmore refuses to have anything to do with him anymore, and he canât seem to communicate with Diane Vera, he may prove to be helpful to Satanists. He recognizes that our brand of iconoclasm has value in a society.
>I don't understand Christianity myself but as long as it's not being shoved down my >throat or being used to guilt-trip another person who doesn't share their moral code, then >I don't see any problem. In fact, I respect any person with the conviction 'walk their >talk'.
It sounds very ideal, but not very real to me. I donât see Christian proselytizing as having gone away at all. There is still intense activism from the Christian lobby. While some Christians are very open about shoving it down your throat and using it to push their moral code, there are others who are quiet about it, as you described above – until they feel their faith is being challenged or not shown the respect that they demand. Either way, itâs still an aggressively pro-Christian agenda.
Why should one have respect for simply âwalking their talkâ? When beliefs and behaviour donât stand up to simple, rational and intelligent challenge, there is no reason to do this. For me, this just seems unhealthy and unnatural.
What has always and inevitably happened is that it comes down to the issue of faith; Christian faith. Fundamentalist, moderate, liberal â whatever kind of Christian, they all demand respect for any or all of the following and more: their faith in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit; their belief in the Creator; their superior moral compass; their âhigherâ level of understanding of His universe; their knowledge of a âgreaterâ truth; the âdeeperâ meaning that comes from their faith. And Iâm not going to give them this repsect. That would be betraying my Self. I simply donât accept that it is a âhigher idealâ as some say, to not question anyoneâs beliefs. I can respect a Christian as a human being, while at the same time being aggressively anti-Christian. That isnât to say that I want to engage with Christians either. I make an effort to avoid them, though difficult to do. Like Diane Vera wrote, it is not realistic to think we can completely escape Christianity. For me lifeâs effort is better spent trying to better understand Satanism, Satanists and those of the Left Hand Path, and empowering my Self.
>I had 'got over' Christianity by the time I came to Satanism but I do remember still being >torn in the way your reader describes because of social conditioning. I hope she figures >it out ;).
And I sincerely hope she figures it out too. And as we all know, not by necessarily becoming a Satanist either. And I do appreciate the fact that I was spared the trauma of social conditioning.
Exactly!! Thank you for this comment, this is interesting
I agree with what Gaina said in the first paragraph of her comment–it really makes sense! Also, according to the Crucifixion story Jesus was crucified for what amounted to heresy and blasphemy against the religious establishment of the time.
Well said!
thank you for this commentary
'Wanting to Love Jesus and Satan at the same time' seems a perfect metaphor for striving to love the dark and light within your own personality!
I have never been comfortable with Satanists or Atheists who aggressively mock Christians. None of us have the definitive answer, just the answer to what works in our own lives so a little humility wouldn't go amiss on either side, IMHO.
I don't understand Christianity myself but as long as it's not being shoved down my throat or being used to guilt-trip another person who doesn't share their moral code, then I don't see any problem. In fact, I respect any person with the conviction 'walk their talk'.
I had 'got over' Christianity by the time I came to Satanism but I do remember still being torn in the way your reader describes because of social conditioning. I hope she figures it out ;).